3 Series wagon is coming back to the USA - F31 3 Series touring to go on sale in 2013

BMW went to a V8 because there was nothing to be had from the I6 and they needed to stay competitive with Audi and MB. Their racing program may have benefited from that move, but that's not why they did it. Again, it doesn't matter anyway-- if they had offered an e91 M3, they could have still had the exact same vaguely coupe shaped racing car.

Here's the crux of the issue: people buy a sport wagon because they want usability and sportiness. If you just want a utility vehicle, you buy an SUV. THE reason to buy a BMW sport wagon is sportiness and practicality in one car. The fuel economy affects the sedan and coupe every bit as much it does the wagon. So if the wagon doesn't make sense because of fuel economy, then neither do the others.

The F10 M5 will be wider, longer, taller, and heavier than an e38 7 series. It's effectively an M7 in old BMW terminology. The F30 is an e39 dimensioned car. The new M3 will, effectively, be what the M5 used to be. And you know what? BMW offered an e34 M5 wagon-- similar in all dimensions to what an F30 M3 wagon would be. Again, yes, I haven't driven an F10 M5 yet. But every generation of M5 is kind of frustrating on a back road, and by all accounts that I've read, this one feels the biggest. So, consider my expectations low. I'd be happy to be proven wrong when they're out for test drives.

The e60 and e9X are cars of the same generation. When discussing this topic, it makes sense to group them together as well as the F10/F30. There may be a brief period where the F10 M5 and e9X M3 are on sale at the same time, but for the majority of each cars life they will compare to cars of their own generation. Within the same generation, the M3 is clearly the more fuel efficient and rewarding to drive car.

The M3's origins are from DTM, yes. That slightly held up in the e36 era. In the 46 era they had an e46 chassis with a non e46 engine. Now the M3 race car has nothing in common with the street car other than the headlights.

Just because there's no business case for it doesn't mean M doesn't see it as something desirable, nor that they haven't in the past: google image search "e46 M3 touring". I'd post pic, but, you know-- you have it set up so I can't post pics or links, as you don't like a fair fight.

I kind of suspect, from how thoroughly you've ruined your own e92 M3, that you don't actually understand the joy of driving a well balanced, sporty car on a daily basis. Maybe that's why you don'y understand why you'd want one that was also practical.

Anyway, I'm out. As always, debating with you is like debating with a wall. A wall that likes to multi quote to fight the minutia, rather than the actually having a discussion.

I can see where the generations of cars keep getting plumped up. I always wanted an E60 M5 but I find it much like my girls Maxima...large overhangs and I cant judge corners without really leaning over the steering wheel (and I drive upright in a proper seating position, not gangster lean).

My E90 335 had great back room, I found it a bit cramped leg-wise in the E60, and the F10 as well (worked on many, had the opportunity to drive many).

My E38 535 fit 4 people very comfortably, and sitting next to a 1M, the 1M appears larger than it....hard to believe, but 27 years of difference of technology will do that.

And oddly enough, if I could, I would drive my E28 every day I would buy an M3 wagon if they made it..I have always had a thing for wagons.

Originally Posted by Obioban

BMW went to a V8 because there was nothing to be had from the I6 and they needed to stay competitive with Audi and MB. Their racing program may have benefited from that move, but that's not why they did it.

You just said they could not gain more from the I6 and the racing program benefited. So that isn't why they did it? Please, tell us all why they did it.

Originally Posted by Obioban

Here's the crux of the issue: people buy a sport wagon because they want usability and sportiness.

Tell me why the N55 does not satisfy this while offering an engine character more suited to a heavier wagon?

Originally Posted by Obioban

The F10 M5 will be wider, longer, taller, and heavier than an e38 7 series. It's effectively an M7 in old BMW terminology. The F30 is an e39 dimensioned car. The new M3 will, effectively, be what the M5 used to be. And you know what? BMW offered an e34 M5 wagon-- similar in all dimensions to what an F30 M3 wagon would be. Again, yes, I haven't driven an F10 M5 yet. But every generation of M5 is kind of frustrating on a back road, and by all accounts that I've read, this one feels the biggest. So, consider my expectations low. I'd be happy to be proven wrong when they're out for test drives.

Cars are getting heavier, can't help it, but it doesn't change the fact technology has improved as well. My answer to all of this is the GT-R. Heavy does not mean you can't perform.

By all accounts I have read they are saying the new F10 M5 handles pretty darn well. It is hefty, don't get me wrong, but the M5 character being heavy to begin with suits a wagon more. Once again, BMW themselves agrees with this.

Originally Posted by Obioban

The e60 and e9X are cars of the same generation. When discussing this topic, it makes sense to group them together as well as the F10/F30.

Not really because the current M3 is the E9X and current M5 is the F10. We have already gone from the high revving motors. You are living in the past.

Originally Posted by Obioban

The M3's origins are from DTM, yes. That slightly held up in the e36 era. In the 46 era they had an e46 chassis with a non e46 engine. Now the M3 race car has nothing in common with the street car other than the headlights.

I think you need to differentiate between ALMS and DTM more. DTM sort of being a European Nascar.

Originally Posted by Obioban

Just because there's no business case for it doesn't mean M doesn't see it as something desirable, nor that they haven't in the past: google image search "e46 M3 touring". I'd post pic, but, you know-- you have it set up so I can't post pics or links, as you don't like a fair fight.

If may be be desirable like a M1 but they haven't produced either.

I have it set up with you a guest vendor because you sell products and act like a $#@!. Don't whine about asking for a fair fight when you went out of your way to get me banned and post libel on forums I could not respond to. You are a hypocrite and a shameless one at that.

Originally Posted by Obioban

I kind of suspect, from how thoroughly you've ruined your own e92 M3, that you don't actually understand the joy of driving a well balanced, sporty car on a daily basis. Maybe that's why you don'y understand why you'd want one that was also practical.

No offense, but I'm building a car for a specific purpose you can't grasp. If I wanted the nice stock driving experience I would have left it stock. Don't get mad because I can do things you can't. This is a site about performance and I'm taking my car to the extreme. The only thing destroyed will be any car you own.

Originally Posted by Obioban

Anyway, I'm out. As always, debating with you is like debating with a wall.

Good idea, run away and hide where I can't have a fair fight. Heh, later hypocrite, come back when you get better at this. That likely means never.

performance /= handling
track times /= handling
lateral grip /= handing

Which... is something that may be out of your grasp if you've been happy with driving your mom's SUV for the last two years, so you could build an M3 that can accelerate quickly. Theoretically... currently M3s don't get much slower than yours (other than when they're backing up).

I didn't get you banned on every BMW forum other than the one your parents bought for you. Your personality did.

Originally Posted by Obioban

performance /= handling
track times /= handling
lateral grip /= handing

Which... is something that may be out of your grasp if you've been happy with driving your mom's SUV for the last two years, so you could build an M3 that can accelerate quickly. Theoretically... currently M3s don't get much slower than yours (other than when they're backing up).

I didn't get you banned on every BMW forum other than the one your parents bought for you. Your personality did.

Whatever you need to tell yourself son, seems the forum I built all by my lonesome is doing quite fine.

Please continue coming here to see what the big boys are doing. You keep talking about your amazing stock handling and stock drivability. Wow us with talk about preserving your warranty too.

Theoretically, you mad. Thanks for playing little guy and keep following me around. One day maybe people will care about what you have to say and do with BMW's. For now, you can't do anything of merit. I pity you. Keep doing shady deals on forums, maybe one day you'll be able to afford a project car for a website of your own. You can read about mine until then.

Weird, as I remember it, you posted pictures of one of my project cars on the site your parents bought you.

Though, in your defense, I don't think you knew it was my car when you did it.

Just to confirm, in your opinion the options for a car are either a) aftermarket FI or b) stock?

Because if you're not going to ruin the wonderful NA M engine, why buy it in the first place, amirite? And there's certainly no other mods out there than FI! And you should certainly mod the power way out of proportion with the rest of the car, as a well balanced car is for morons!

Originally Posted by Obioban

Weird, as I remember it, you posted pictures of one of my project cars on the site your parents bought you.

Though, in your defense, I don't think you knew it was my car when you did it.

Just to confirm, in your opinion the options for a car are either a) aftermarket FI or b) stock?

Because if you're not going to ruin the wonderful NA M engine, why buy it in the first place, amirite? And there's certainly no other mods out there than FI! And you should certainly mod the power way out of proportion with the rest of the car, as a well balanced car is for morons!

You are still here?

Does it make you angry I built my own business? Upset I'm succeeding where you and your little group of bitter and jealous little girls said I couldn't? Mad you can't stop me and there is nothing you can do about it nobody?

You seriously don't have enough of your own money to start your own website? That's hilarious, seems you are not as smart or capable. Also seems you are bitter about money issues if a few hundred bucks for vbulletin is something you think outside assistance is necessary for. No wonder you hate me so much.

Supercharged m3's are sooooo out of proportion, lol. You must have a ton of experience with supercharged e92's. Learn what you are talking about. Run along home child, as if you need me to remind me who runs this place.