Weistec Engeering Stage 1 63 AMG M156 V8 supercharger is now 50 state legal - CARB certification approved

Originally Posted by Sticky

You misunderstood me again. Dinan supplies their own warranty. I stated dealers could do the same as in provide their own warranty just like Dinan provides their own warranty. Your analogy may be correct in your mind but it was not the one I was drawing.

What could also happen is somehing like what Dinan has with certain dealers that are approved dealerships. Reason being Weistec should not simply provide a full warranty across the board as some guy installing this in their backyard might make a mistake and it would be illogical for Weistec to be on the hook for it.

I understand what you're saying - I just don't agree with the premise that the installer would ever offer a warranty the way you suggest. There is just no way you'd ever see that happen... which is why, incidentally, no one ever has. The economic disincentive to the installer would far outweigh any benefits.

The warranty would come from the manufacturer, Weistec, if any were offered at all (e.g. the way Dinan does it). Yes, of course, it would only apply to units installed throughout their approved dealer network. Kits sold direct to the end-user or otherwise installed by a non-approved mechanic/shop would void the coverage, if any hypothetical powertrain warrany coverage were ever offered by Weistec.

Originally Posted by LZH

Interesting. I forgot about the Dinan dealer relationship. That would be cool if Weistec did in fact have a limited number of "approved" dealers to install the Stage 1 and they also issued a limited powertrain warranty. I'm sure that would be a big selling point for new car buyers and really...how many Stage 1 failures do you honestly think there are gonna be ?

Yes, it would be pretty cool if Weistec sold through strategic MB dealerships, and Weistec supplemented the client's warranty to "make them whole" in the event they had a powertrain denial as a direct result of the Weistec products on their vehicle. Realistically, the price of everything they sell would go up a bit to reflect the coverage, and they would probably secure a specialty liability policy from someone like Lloyd's to mitigate their economic downside risk.

Originally Posted by Exeenom

Yes I was referring to Mercedes dealerships. Regarding supercharger/turbocharger installs, the most common answer I got after asking dealerships if they would do an install (in the past) was that they couldn't simply because it was NOT legal. So now after Weistec has been approved, assuming the customer doesn't care about warranty, would this facilitate such a process?

It really is the dealerships' prerogative because even if a blower kit does not have an E.O., the kits can still be legally run "off-road." And even in CA, dealerships install and sell F/I cars that are not CARB legal and are deemed on the sticker to be for "off-road" use only.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

I understand what you're saying - I just don't agree with the premise that the installer would ever offer a warranty the way you suggest

That's fine, my point is a dealer certainly could as dealers provide their own warranties for things now such as their own parts, extended warranties, etc. So not sure what you mean by no one ever has. This could certainly pave the way for agreements with dealers as well.

My point was substituting a warranty in place of the MBUSA warranty anyway.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

The warranty would come from the manufacturer, Weistec, if any were offered at all (e.g. the way Dinan does it).

Sure, maybe? That is possible as well. Back in the day before BMW started its own performance parts division they had a formal agreement with Dinan and dealers actually offered a warranty and had to do the warranty work on Dinan products should it have arisen. Dinan didn't have to pay out of pocket for those as the manufacturer with approved dealers who took on risk but also made money selling the parts. Dealers still pay a portion for warranty work these days on MBUSA warrantied products they sell too btw.

Originally Posted by Sonny

It really is the dealerships' prerogative because even if a blower kit does not have an E.O., the kits can still be legally run "off-road." And even in CA, dealerships install and sell F/I cars that are not CARB legal and are deemed on the sticker to be for "off-road" use only.

Good point.

Originally Posted by Sticky

Good point.

Thanks.

I remember last year visiting Galpin Ford and seeing some blown GT500's that said not CARB legal on the sticker. And they have a big shop, as I'm sure you and everyone knows that does a lot of aftermarket work.

What's interesting is that in many of the E.O.'s that I've read, CARB states that the blowers cannot be installed prior to or contemporaneous with the sale of the vehicle (i.e., dealership X cannot sell a CARB legal car with a newly installed blower that is not CARB legal, and retain the CARB legal status).

Originally Posted by Sonny

Thanks.

I remember last year visiting Galpin Ford and seeing some blown GT500's that said not CARB legal on the sticker. And they have a big shop, as I'm sure you and everyone knows that does a lot of aftermarket work.

What's interesting is that in many of the E.O.'s that I've read, CARB states that the blowers cannot be installed prior to or contemporaneous with the sale of the vehicle (i.e., dealership X cannot sell a CARB legal car with a newly installed blower that is not CARB legal, and retain the CARB legal status).

Funny, I remember something similar but with Villa Ford.

They install blowers and would do "off-road" only stuff as well.

Toyota dealers will sell you a new Tundra with a TRD blower on it I believe but that is also CARB approved. Obviously a blower that is not CARB legal would void this.

Originally Posted by Sonny

It really is the dealerships' prerogative because even if a blower kit does not have an E.O., the kits can still be legally run "off-road." And even in CA, dealerships install and sell F/I cars that are not CARB legal and are deemed on the sticker to be for "off-road" use only.

I understand it's always been the dealer's prerogative, but in my past experiences many dealers shied away from similar installs (despite being offered good money for it) specifically because of the CARB issue, as some has explained to me, it almost always ends up coming back to bite them in the a**. Heck I once had trouble trying to get a dealership to install an intake With this certification, some of those dealers may flip sides.... also, it motivates trust towards the certified company's products. Hopefully we'll start seeing more and more supercharged 63s out there

Originally Posted by Exeenom

With this certification, some of those dealers may flip sides....

Exactly, and imagine being able to work a blower into your deal when you buy the car

Originally Posted by Sticky

Exactly, and imagine being able to work a blower into your deal when you buy the car

Yup, spread that blower price out over the life of the financing or lease...can't beat that.

Originally Posted by Sticky

That's fine, my point is a dealer certainly could as dealers provide their own warranties for things now such as their own parts, extended warranties, etc. So not sure what you mean by no one ever has. This could certainly pave the way for agreements with dealers as well.

My point was substituting a warranty in place of the MBUSA warranty anyway.

My apologies, I'm not sure I see your point. When you buy a replacement part through a dealership, the warranty on those replacement parts (I think that's what you're saying) is a warranty from Mercedes on the genuine Mercedes part. Not a warranty from XYZ Mecedes Benz dealership. An extended warranty a dealership sells is warrantied by the company offering it (not the dealership selling and receiving a commission for it). Neither of those examples are warranties backed by the full faith and claims paying ability of the dealership.

The only warranty I know of, that a dealership is potentially on the hook for, might be applicable labor charges. Even then, they probably get reimbursed to some degree.

Sure, maybe? That is possible as well. Back in the day before BMW started its own performance parts division they had a formal agreement with Dinan and dealers actually offered a warranty and had to do the warranty work on Dinan products should it have arisen. Dinan didn't have to pay out of pocket for those as the manufacturer with approved dealers who took on risk but also made money selling the parts.

Maybe I misunderstood that relationship then. My impression was, Dinan's relationship with BMW NA and its dealership network was for sales distribution and installation services. Dinan was aware of the concern of clients that their new-car warranty might be compromised on affected hardware componentry and/or systems in the event they installed Dinan hardware on the vehicle during the warranty period. To alleviate those concerns, Dinan started providing supplemental warranty coverage to make their clients whole. Still do, actually:

http://www.dinancars.com/warranty.aspx

To be clear: you're saying that "back in the day" Dinan's dealers ate the parts and labor costs of any warranty work performed, without any reimbursement or remuneration from Dinan corporate?

Dealers still pay a portion for warranty work these days on MBUSA warrantied products they sell too btw.

I've read that sentence 5 times and still can't figure out what it means.

Are you saying the dealership pays for a portion of the warranty work performed on a customer car out of their own pockets, anytime it's in for repair while covered by the MBUSA new car warranty?

I know that for warranty work, the reimbursement rate dealers receive is typically lower than their billable rate if the client were to be paying directly for the repair - but that's not the same thing as saying the dealership is actually paying for it out of their own pockets.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

My apologies, I'm not sure I see your point. When you buy a replacement part through a dealership, the warranty on those replacement parts (I think that's what you're saying) is a warranty from Mercedes on the genuine Mercedes part

I'm not talking about a replacement part from Mercedes. I meant parts from dealers that dealers make, like Champion for example.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

An extended warranty a dealership sells is warrantied by the company offering it (not the dealership selling and receiving a commission for it).

Some of the larger dealers have their own warranties on used cars for example. Crevier attempted to offer me their own warranty as well, maybe through another company don't remember. Still, some dealers do this.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

Maybe I misunderstood that relationship then.

Yes, as my point was someone substituting their own warranty. Dinan proved this could be done.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

My impression was, Dinan's relationship with BMW NA and its dealership network was for sales distribution and installation services.

Dinan used to have an official deal with BMWNA. BMW announced their own line of performance parts and this came to an end with Dinan then having to substitute their own warranty in. That is where all the confusion originated from Dinan parts not voiding the BMW warranty.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

To be clear: you're saying that "back in the day" Dinan's dealers ate the parts and labor costs of any warranty work performed, without any reimbursement or remuneration from Dinan corporate?

I'm not sure what the exact split was or how the behind the scenes worked but dealers performing labor clearly shared a large portion of the burden if not all of it. I would have to ask Steve Dinan and I definitely plan to when I interview him.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

I've read that sentence 5 times and still can't figure out what it means.

Ok, say you bought a car. Like I did. I bought it from Crevier, right? I had a valve spring issue. The dealer had to cover the labor, not BMWNA. BMWNA covered the parts. Dealers are responsible for certain things and each company and even certain dealers do it differently. For example, there is a Subaru dealership here in SoCal that will provide their own warranty and labor coverage for Subaru's they tune or install certain performance parts on. Hope this makes sense.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

I know that for warranty work, the reimbursement rate dealers receive is typically lower than their billable rate if the client were to be paying directly for the repair - but that's not the same thing as saying the dealership is actually paying for it out of their own pockets.

I'm sure this fluctuates depending on the situation. For my vehicle for example first some higher up from BMWNA was sent out to verify everything the dealer stated and we reached a settlement which was unique to me with the dealer sharing a portion. Make sense?

Originally Posted by Exeenom

I understand it's always been the dealer's prerogative, but in my past experiences many dealers shied away from similar installs (despite being offered good money for it) specifically because of the CARB issue, as some has explained to me, it almost always ends up coming back to bite them in the a**. Heck I once had trouble trying to get a dealership to install an intake With this certification, some of those dealers may flip sides.... also, it motivates trust towards the certified company's products. Hopefully we'll start seeing more and more supercharged 63s out there

I hear you completely. I've encountered the same type of crap from dealers.

Personally, I think many dealerships' reluctance to install modifications has more to do with their unfamiliarity with anything that is not part of their precise OEM training. But, I've also been to shops that are near death-stricken by CARB's hand.

Originally Posted by Sticky

Exactly, and imagine being able to work a blower into your deal when you buy the car

It's a nice thought. But, I looked up a random E.O. and found familliar language that applies to your post. This is what many, if not every E.O. I've read, says: "This Executive Order shall not apply to any Supercharger kit advertised, offered for sale, sold with, or installed on a new motor vehicle, prior to or concurrent with transfer to an ultimate purchaser."

So, it doesn't seem like you can buy a blower, even one that has an E.O., when purchasing a new car.

Originally Posted by LZH

Yup, spread that blower price out over the life of the financing or lease...can't beat that.

It would be nice, but apparently it cannot be done.

Originally Posted by Sticky

I'm not talking about a replacement part from Mercedes. I meant parts from dealers that dealers make, like Champion for example.

You might think I'm being a smartass, but I'm not trying to be: that example doesn't work for what you're suggesting. Champion Porsche doesn't make parts. Champion Motorsports makes aftermarket performance parts. Champion Motorsports offers some forms of warranty.

In fact, if you go by this listing, Champion Motorsports doesn't even consider Champion (the dealership) to be one of their "Premier" dealers and installers:

http://www.championmotorsport.com/Articles.asp?ID=146

Some of the larger dealers have their own warranties on used cars for example. Crevier attempted to offer me their own warranty as well, maybe through another company don't remember. Still, some dealers do this.

Yes, but when you actually read the fine print, this is almost always a third-party warranty they're simply selling. Dealerships aren't in the insurance business, and wouldn't have a large enough sample to be actuarially viable on their own.

Dinan used to have an official deal with BMWNA. BMW announced their own line of performance parts and this came to an end with Dinan then having to substitute their own warranty in. That is where all the confusion originated from Dinan parts not voiding the BMW warranty.

I didn't realize such confusion existed. I thought it was well-known that Dinan parts voided the manufacturer warranty for affected systems, but that Dinan supplemented the warranty to ensure coverage.

Ok, say you bought a car. Like I did. I bought it from Crevier, right? I had a valve spring issue. The dealer had to cover the labor, not BMWNA. BMWNA covered the parts. Dealers are responsible for certain things and each company and even certain dealers do it differently. For example, there is a Subaru dealership here in SoCal that will provide their own warranty and labor coverage for Subaru's they tune or install certain performance parts on. Hope this makes sense.

Don't know the particulars of your vehicle's issue, sorry to hear of it however.

l'd be curious to learn more about that Subaru dealership example. I presume the performance parts are aftermarket, not simply SPT hardware?

When E46 M3s were first released and several had engine issues requiring replacement, BMW's dealership network had to eat all of that labor expense themselves? That sucks for them.

Originally Posted by Sonny

It's a nice thought. But, I looked up a random E.O. and found familliar language that applies to your post. This is what many, if not every E.O. I've read, says: "This Executive Order shall not apply to any Supercharger kit advertised, offered for sale, sold with, or installed on a new motor vehicle, prior to or concurrent with transfer to an ultimate purchaser."

So, it doesn't seem like you can buy a blower, even one that has an E.O., when purchasing a new car.

Hmm, damn, we'll see I guess. I know it has been talked about and truly hope it would happen somehow as that would open it up to a lot more people.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

You might think I'm being a smartass, but I'm not trying to be: that example doesn't work for what you're suggesting. Champion Porsche doesn't make parts. Champion Motorsports makes aftermarket performance parts. Champion Motorsports offers some forms of warranty.

A bit but um Champion is all part of one big family essentially and they are big enough to where they can offer a warranty on their "motorsports" parts. If a wheel breaks for example or whatever else. Regardless, you misunderstood as I was not referring to OEM parts that the dealer would have to warranty to begin with.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

In fact, if you go by this listing, Champion Motorsports doesn't even consider Champion (the dealership) to be one of their "Premier" dealers and installers:

http://www.championmotorsport.com/Articles.asp?ID=146

Come on, do you really believe that? It isn't even relevant and kind of a left field post but maybe self-promotion of your own dealer network when you are listing other dealers installing your parts is a bit unprofessional and tacky don't you think? You really think you walk into Champion Porsche and they don't consider their own dealer capable of installing Champion parts? Really?

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

Yes, but when you actually read the fine print, this is almost always a third-party warranty they're simply selling.

Yes, there almost always is. Almost always... so dealers can and do offer their own warranties at times for a variety of things from cars to parts and it certainly can happen. So.... uh, now what?

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

I didn't realize such confusion existed. I thought it was well-known that Dinan parts voided the manufacturer warranty for affected systems, but that Dinan supplemented the warranty to ensure coverage.

The confusion arises from not always having been the case. Dinan and BMW had a formal arrangement at one point.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

l'd be curious to learn more about that Subaru dealership example. I presume the performance parts are aftermarket, not simply SPT hardware?

You can just do a search online but it's fairly well known, Renick Subaru.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

When E46 M3s were first released and several had engine issues requiring replacement, BMW's dealership network had to eat all of that labor expense themselves? That sucks for them.

I don't think the dealership network had to eat all the labor and the engine issue you are referring to is the bearing recall which I'm not sure how BMWNA reimbursed or dealt with the labor by the dealers on that issue. As I said, certain issues are unique and official recalls probably have their own procedure that each manufacturer sets. For Porsche dealers try hard to get as many recall cars in as they make quite a lot of money this way from the labor.

Originally Posted by Sticky

Hmm, damn, we'll see I guess. I know it has been talked about and truly hope it would happen somehow as that would open it up to a lot more people.

Well, we know that in the GM world there are Callaway Corvettes and Camaro's that are sold at GM dealerships. And these cars are CARB legal.

So, there is some way for an aftermaret supercharger to be installed on a new car so that when that car is sold it is purchased by a buyer as a CARB legal blown car.

I don't know how it is done, but I would suspect that GM actively works with Callaway on such endeavors.

The clause from the E.O. that I quoted would prevent a blower from being sold with a new car. But, to speculate, if Weistec can reach a deal with MBUSA so that together they can receive exemption from CARB's restrictions in order to allow end purchasers of new cars to option a "Weistec 63."

That would be great. However, if that came to be, something tells me the blower will end up costing more than the current retail price of $15K, just like Callaways package costs much more than a Maggie in the aftermarket.

@Sticky ,

Also, Callaway Corvetts/Camaros are not sold with GM powertrain warranties. They are sold with Callaway warranties. So, I'm assuming if there came to be "Weistec 63's," Weistec would have to secure third party warranties for the end consumer.

Originally Posted by Sonny

@Sticky ,

Also, Callaway Corvetts/Camaros are not sold with GM powertrain warranties. They are sold with Callaway warranties. So, I'm assuming if there came to be "Weistec 63's," Weistec would have to secure third party warranties for the end consumer.

Callaway found a solution as do many others. So, the warranty talk isn't even a big deal IMO as obviously there are options.