M3 Tuner Shootout May 21, 2011 - Bone Stock 2011 M3 on 91 octane

where is it gonna be at? any spectators allowed?

Originally Posted by fastgti69

where is it gonna be at? any spectators allowed?

Spectators are allowed. It will be at DC Performance:

DC Performance, Inc
3370 South Livonia Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90034
310.841.6996

Just contacted Evolve as well.

If anyone has any other tuners in mind, let me know.

sweet!

nice!

this sounds like a great idea.. ill be there.. calling them out love it

Originally Posted by Kautiongsr

this sounds like a great idea.. ill be there.. calling them out love it

It's more like they can all just settle this. We tried this before but this time, date is set, place is set, no excuses. Thing is, trying to get these guys to meet instead of fight online is way harder than it sounds.

Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe

nice!

Fingers crossed the tuners are more interested in tuning than typing...

Originally Posted by LostMarine

great idea, im sure the loud mouths and finger pointers wont show though, again

That is what I'm thinking but OE Tuning has committed and I have informed everyone.

So, if someone could explain this to me:

Originally Posted by Mike@Powerchip

We've had plenty of wasted opportunities to run this test, and each time you and Jeremy backed down for flimsy reasons.

Let's not waste this opportunity...

Originally Posted by LostMarine

wow, didnt know they said that, its a bit hypocritical no?

That remains to be seen.

OE Tuning and Powerchip did both agree to the previous shootout. It was ESS who backed out.

I want Giac to show up. Ive always heard they have good agressive tunes but meh never saw it for myself in the vw scene and dont think they'll do too well on the bmw scene either.

This is gonna be real good.

Originally Posted by fastgti69

I want Giac to show up. Ive always heard they have good agressive tunes but meh never saw it for myself in the vw scene and dont think they'll do too well on the bmw scene either.

This is gonna be real good.

They didn't respond last time and I doubt they will respond this time either. Would be great... but I doubt it.

Originally Posted by Sticky

They didn't respond last time and I doubt they will respond this time either. Would be great... but I doubt it.

Giac has always been for themselves. theyve never been active on the vw forums either. :/ it would be some nice info to have tho

Originally Posted by fastgti69

Giac has always been for themselves. theyve never been active on the vw forums either. :/ it would be some nice info to have tho

We'll see....

Here's the problem with something like this.

For the sake of a few dyno runs a tuner (like us) could easily put a tune in for the dyno shootout which is extremely aggressive with all safety switched completely off.

We could turn off adaptation for high oil and coolant temps. We can raise ignition to points where it runs a static ignition giving massive power. This type of tune we KNOW will have long term effects on the engine and in some cases in short term (few thousand miles). We can use very aggressive cam angles amongst the many other RF related maps etc etc

Who's to say we would not do this to come up as the most powerful in this?

The other problem is who is responsible for making sure all temperatures are kept consistent? Who will do the datalogging?

This is not as simple as it seems and you could be witnessing unsafe maps rather than the release versions which retain a large degree of safety.

You could also have the following scenario:

Evolve comes on and does a tune. Way too much ignition, totally unsafe and it gains power but there is some detonation detected. The adaptive values for knock will now be negative. Next tuner, say OE comes along. Does a great map which is safe and is genuinely good. However, the ECU is removing ignition now of say -3 deg per cylinder average. What happens? The bad tune ends up looking better than the good one!

Are we resetting adaptations between tunes?

Are we looking at MAX Power or are we studying the gains per tune?

What is the exact strategy here or should I put down some guidelines? I would prefer if the other participants would put their ideas forward before I do.

Sorry for putting a downer on this but this is the kind of stuff that happens on tests like these. I think it's important for the watching public to know this.

Originally Posted by evolve

The other problem is who is responsible for making sure all temperatures are kept consistent? Who will do the datalogging?

Logging will be done by the operator. It will be impossible to keep all temperatures constant through the day but no reason we can't mention the temps.

Originally Posted by evolve

For the sake of a few dyno runs a tuner (like us) could easily put a tune in for the dyno shootout which is extremely aggressive with all safety switched completely off.

We could turn off adaptation for high oil and coolant temps. We can raise ignition to points where it runs a static ignition giving massive power. This type of tune we KNOW will have long term effects on the engine and in some cases in short term (few thousand miles). We can use very aggressive cam angles amongst the many other RF related maps etc etc

Who's to say we would not do this to come up as the most powerful in this?

The idea is to give the tune you would give to a customer as this will be an independent car. A glory will also be easily exposed with all the logs, won't it?

Originally Posted by evolve

Are we resetting adaptations between tunes?

I believe so, this would be necessary right?

Originally Posted by evolve

Are we looking at MAX Power or are we studying the gains per tune?

Both.

Originally Posted by evolve

What is the exact strategy here or should I put down some guidelines? I would prefer if the other participants would put their ideas forward before I do.

Sorry for putting a downer on this but this is the kind of stuff that happens on tests like these. I think it's important for the watching public to know this.

Not a downer at all! This is great.

Absolutely set some guidelines down as a tuner. I don't even want to be involved in that, you guys need to agree. All I intend to do is report the guidelines and the results. You guys figure out the playing field and I will make sure the operator enforces it.

This is good

Logging temps is really important.

Once intake temps start rising your stuffed.

The idea might be that we want a tune that goes on a normal customers car but you CANNOT control this. Unless of course you give all the tunes to an independant person to check..... which ain't happening!!

Max power should be thrown straight out of the window and the concentration should be on gains above standard baseline.

The fairest way is as follows:

Car is dyno tested completely standard. Ideally 140E software should be loaded before hand as it is the last known software which is not tuner protected.
The stock file is then reflashed in again, adaptations reset and a consistent baseline achieved.

1st tuner loads his file. Results taken.

Car is then flashed back with stock software and another base line done. Adaptations reset.

Next tuner comes along loads his software.

This is THE ONLY way to fairly test because it removes any changes in weather conditions and we concentrate on gains.

Max power is not recommended here at all because conditions will change.

The gain in power over a stock software is the most important factor here, everything else does not matter.


Why do I ask that the base car is flashed with stock software twice and a base line taken? The tuners will know this one but the public won't.

Take ANY stock car and do a baseline. Then flash the stock software in again and then do another baseline. Sometimes there is a power gain Sometimes tuners claim this as part of their own upgrade but the actual difference is much smaller!

Now I will get some emails from a few tuners telling me to keep my mouth shut!! Not all of them are mentioned in this thread, some are just readers.

I'll be selling 20lbs bags of ice just outside the dyno shop for 19.95 a bag