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  • Sticky's Avatar
    Today, 06:37 PM
    They can't explain it because the difference is far greater than 11 horses.
    83 replies | 961 view(s)
  • Chris@VargasTurboTech's Avatar
    219 replies | 1856 view(s)
  • Sticky's Avatar
    Today, 06:36 PM
    No they weren't. They made EXACTLY what they were supposed to. My E46 M3 and E92 M3 both showed 15% losses on the dot. Not correct. The Audi's had much higher drivetrain losses and made far less power. They kept squeezing out horses with each 4.2 FSI iteration but by the time of the final 450 hp evolution everyone already moved to turbos and nobody cared.
    83 replies | 961 view(s)
  • SCGT's Avatar
    219 replies | 1856 view(s)
  • hpfpupgrade's Avatar
    Today, 06:11 PM
    Not the case. And this is what our current failure point is: We are trying to resolve the wall blowing out with our new fuel pump internals. Currently the factory feed side is the restriction, we are trying to address this. I have 2 years into this pump right now. I have successfully got 3 fuel pumps running on customers cars without any issues. We are working on getting more feed side volume into the pump to support the new fuel pump internals. I am working on a line and new tap point for the fuel pump to support the increased volume of the upgraded fuel pump internals. It could be this year, or early next year when our fuel pump is ready. Thanks.
    219 replies | 1856 view(s)
  • Sticky's Avatar
    Today, 05:31 PM
    Very solid results here from a Stage 1 BMW F10 M5 S63TU V8 ECU flash dyno tune. Mission Performance is relatively new but they have shown some pretty good results with the N63TU engine in the F10 550i models and now the S63TU in the F10 M5. Let's take a look at the graph: Very nice and the torque curve isn't dropping off like crazy so they aren't pushing the factory turbos too hard to try and hit some high peak figures or inflate the torque curve down low. This F10 M5 has the factory downpipes, BMC filters, Corsa mufflers, and AP scoops. Good results after several runs to dial it in:
    0 replies | 39 view(s)
  • Sticky's Avatar
    Today, 05:00 PM
    Lewis Hamilton and Nico Rosberg are now both signed through 2018 for Mercedes-AMG Formula 1. That means the internal team rivalry they have going will continue. You may remember that they have collided a few times forcing each other out of races and that the Mercedes F1 bosses told them to cool it. This contract extension is not likely to cool things off as it means Nico and Lewis will continue to compete for supremacy. Lewis Hamilton is now in first place in the driver standings despite Rosberg holding a lead for much of the season. Lewis Hamilton won the Hungarian Grand Prix with Rosberg coming in second place which considerably helped Lewis Hamilton's position for the driver's championship. Will Hamilton repeat as champion? Will Rosberg win it? Will the team favor one driver over the other or let them go at it? It's going to be fun to watch. We are delighted to announce that the Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula 1 Team has signed a two-year contract extension with Nico Rosberg for the 2017 and 2018 Formula One seasons.
    3 replies | 42 view(s)
  • Sticky's Avatar
    Today, 04:28 PM
    There is certainly truth to this. This website often times jumps out in front of stories others will not cover. It's impossible to monitor everything 24/7 or know what is going behind the scenes at every shop in the world but I think you see an effort here to expose and research stories others will not. It's a shady industry. There are good guys and bad guys just like there are anywhere but the automotive tuning world tends to attract a lot of slimeballs for some reason. Likely because the customers often have money to burn. You state many close shop but I have seen shops that flat out screwed people continuing to operate for years and years. I don't know how they do it but they do it.
    15 replies | 865 view(s)
  • Sticky's Avatar
    Today, 03:05 PM
    In a way its sad as Jaguar won't have its own motor and it would have been cool to see them add turbos to the 5.0 liter. Meh, another car with the same turbo V8 design except this time it's the EXACT same as a competitor.
    3 replies | 293 view(s)
  • Daleb's Avatar
    83 replies | 961 view(s)
  • Daleb's Avatar
    Today, 12:56 PM
    That's typical numbers we see at the flywheel (as stated on the dyno graphs) for e92 and f80 m3's in standard and modified tune. That's the same dyno albeit different days. I 100% agree that the f80 is in a completely different league to the e92 with outright acceleration. Looking at the peak power figures doesn't really explain it but when you disect the power curves it really does show how much more power under the curve the turbo m3/4's have: e92-f80 4000rpm: 225-315 bhp 5000rpm: 275-380 bhp From 5500rpm to redline the f80 is making more than 400bhp, the e92 doesn't break 400 bhp until 7500rpm for its last 1000 rpm to redline. Thats a huge difference and where the f80 is getting its extra performance from.
    83 replies | 961 view(s)
  • sahyoun's Avatar
    Today, 11:48 AM
    Both of you still didnt answer my question. According to BMW, theres ~10 crank hp difference between the e92 m3 and f80 m3. When they are both measured on the SAME dyno there is a massive 70hp difference at the wheels on that dyno. How do you explain that? Are you saying that the e92 was just THAT underrated? Anyway you slice it there is far more than a 10hp difference between these cars from the same manufacturer. Basic common sense would allow you to understand that BMW has been underrating the turbo cars. Literally every test figure points to an underrated car. Look at the quarter mile times of the F80, you'd be crazy to think that its running those times came from a true 425hp car. Even BMW's weights for their cars aren't accurate anymore. Pretty much everyone on this entire forum understands this concept. It has nothing to do with us being American. This forum is more for people who dont just believe BS numbers and claims manufacturers like BMW spit out, and actually wait until these claims and numbers are verified and compared to one another. Your stupidity is absolutely astounding, Sticky isn't trolling however I am beginning to think you are since this is such a basic concept to understand and you're completely missing it.
    83 replies | 961 view(s)
  • Chris@VargasTurboTech's Avatar
    Today, 11:09 AM
    Got a few questions from some guys about spool, boost, dyno versus street, diminishing returns, etc. Ok ok, I'll bite. First, the standard accepted in our BMW world is the dynojet. As far as I know it's always been like that -likely because they're consistent. One issue, though, is that a dynojet will not put as much load as actually driving the car on the street will (same gear), which means typically spool is better on the street than will show on a dynojet. I won't go into the tuning implications as it's beyond the scope of this post, but in short, if you see a dynojet that is in a reasonable gear, and the spool looks ok, it'll only get better on the street. So what about someone comparing spool on a street pull to spool of a different turbo on a dynojet? Not so useful. It's easy to see when you just compare dyno to dyno. Excuses aside, here is the direct comparison -(remember "better spool")...Red is us, green is them: That spool looks pretty good to us! As discussed above, it'll only get better on the street. Both will be better on the street, but unfortunately no turbo manufacturer owns the rights to street spool. ;) If they have better spool on a dyno, they should post it! It's no fun getting beat on spool and horsepower in the same chart. We do not have a street log to compare -too many variables and opportunities for questionable measuring practices to go on. All the same, compare dyno to dyno if you want some meaningful data. As more are sold, people will begin posting their logs/tunes/timeslips. It should help clear all this up. Speaking of clearing things up, I heard a rumor from another competitor that the GC's, which are made by Zage to Tony's exact specifications (to be clear; not "zage cast turbos" but nice try lol) have "diminishing returns after 650 whp". I guess it depends on what you define as diminishing. If you mean that they have another 90+ whp in them, but you're heating things up because you're making 650 whp out of a 3 liter motor, then sure. We'll go with that. Otherwise it's just more talk from guys that need to focus on their own products. Final thoughts; the awesome spool on the GC's won't be the best spool you see from a VTT cast turbo this year and the GC's awesome 738 whp dyno run won't be the highest cast turbo dyno you see from VTT either. With me taking over the majority of the online work, Tony has been left to his own devices for far too long, and has been cooking up some savage new ideas.
    65 replies | 1618 view(s)
  • lulz_m3's Avatar
    Today, 10:04 AM
    Could be possible based on the torque curve and what RPM's they are at when starting the pull.
    8 replies | 416 view(s)
  • 65AMG's Avatar
    Today, 07:18 AM
    Zod, it is a little bit sad but very true what you say. Also Talent, Knowledge and creative abilities do not always mean economical success, sometimes even the one wins who has the most fanboys (kids) behind them. But there are also a few good companies - which are sometimes driving a bit under the radar - and you get real quality work and results for your money. It is not an easy business in my opinion.
    15 replies | 865 view(s)
  • onisyndicate's Avatar
    3 replies | 293 view(s)
  • zod's Avatar
    Today, 06:47 AM
    Well, I have been on forums long enough to know the following: 3 sides to a story his, theirs and the truth Tuners in general are not what they make themselves out to be and run a fan base to promote their business (freebies, go post on forums, get a professional driver fix up his car and use them as a poster child...etc) The industry itself is shady and is built on lies (fake/ copied parts /resold, stolen copied tunes) stick your name on it, fake accounts, fake customers, fake testimonies, setup races/drag events and on and on. I would say that a staggering 60-70% of them close shop or have bad histories if not more. All are hailed as kings, then fall from grace when the truth comes out. In the end customer is screwed as usual. Lots of things are covered up and the user base never finds out, except for a select few, until its too late. Sad but fact. If you believe all business have no dirt...you are sadly mistaken....
    15 replies | 865 view(s)
  • 808elise's Avatar
    Today, 03:47 AM
    S54 has plenty of potential. Try something custom. Push the envelope and try new things: (My dyno of 1056WHP was to go here but I guess I need five rep points....) That was 35#. We tuned it to 40# and it would not hold grip with Falken 452 315s. My R888 335s should be here middle of the next month. I will have new numbers in mid September when we continue to fine tune the bugs out and I expect numbers to be much higher (crunch the numbers and tell me where you think it will be...) than my current ones. Especially if we choose to push it past 40psi. Don't know why guys are switching to 2JZ. I strongly considered LSx TT but more than 800WHP is just silly anyhow. I lose traction in every gear in my low boost setting of approximately 800WHP. These new Garrett turbos are fun.
    31 replies | 929 view(s)
  • Daleb's Avatar
    Today, 03:27 AM
    Well that went a bit crazy....... E92 and e46 m3's never made their book figures, they were always shy of that. Same story with the N/A Audi v8 found in the rs4, rs5 and r8. The m4's power under the curve and torque surely contributes to its great increase in acceleration over the previous gen. Again I'm not expecting people's opinions to just magically change, that's just how it is.
    83 replies | 961 view(s)
  • FC4's Avatar
    Today, 01:53 AM
    A ton of data out there is bogus. Example in a table put out by Evo below on the GTS. I don't care shitty the S55's top-end is...does anyone really believe that 130-150 MPH or 140-160 MPH acceleration is quicker in 6th gear than in 5th (the latter by a significant amount)? or 80-100 MPH is quicker in 4th gear than in 3rd?
    8 replies | 416 view(s)
  • Zeee_Q's Avatar
    Today, 01:52 AM
    Hopefully they come up with a way to make the new turbo motor sound as good as the current supercharged one.
    3 replies | 293 view(s)
  • ModifiedArmy's Avatar
    Today, 01:30 AM
    Sorry, been a bit busy, and since we haven't officially signed on as a sponsor yet I haven't set up notifications or reminders for posting here yet. Just curious though,... what specifically were you hoping I was going to respond to?
    38 replies | 1080 view(s)
  • Nugs's Avatar
    83 replies | 961 view(s)
  • Nugs's Avatar
    Today, 12:52 AM
    How do you not understand this. Are you saying attitudes (whether they are based on fact or not) can't vary by region?
    83 replies | 961 view(s)
  • Nugs's Avatar
    Today, 12:50 AM
    Sorry I forgot the irrelevant wall of text that completely misses the point. By far, water-brake dynos are the most popular in performance automotive applications. At the heart of the dyno is a power absorption unit, which attaches directly to an engine's crankshaft or flywheel. As an engine is accelerated on the dyno, the absorption unit's rotational element (rotor) spins inside its stationary housing (stator). It functions much like a torque converter but uses water instead of transmission fluid. Consequently, although the rotor and stator are not physically connected, as the rotor starts to spin, the stator tries to rotate with it in the same direction. Attached to the stator housing on one end and the dyno's steel frame on the other, a strain gauge prevents the absorption unit from spinning and measures torque. "What dynos actually measure is torque, not horsepower," explains Roberts. "Since horsepower is a mathematical equation, the dyno measures torque then calculates horsepower." Eddy-current (EC) dynos operate on a similar principle, but electrical current provides the load in lieu of water. A steel rotating element spins through an electromagnetic field, and load is increased by cranking up the magnetism. The benefit of EC dynos is their precise load control. In steady-state testing, they can control an engine within 1-2 rpm, opposed to the 5-10 range of a water-brake dyno. However, they're not very practical or appropriate for most engine builders. "Although they're very precise, EC dynos are extremely expensive to set up and operate and have less dynamic operating range in terms of measuring horsepower," says Roberts. "That's why they're better suited for R&D labs at the OEs." The most sophisticated yet least common type of dyno is the alternating-current (AC) dyno. Essentially a large AC motor, in addition to absorbing power it can also power a motor. This allows AC dynos to replicate any on track condition-such as coasting, upshifting, and downshifting-and simulate and entire race in a test cell. Expensive even by Nextel Cup standards, AC dynos are typically reserved for mega-buck racing operations like Formula 1. Correction Factors Without correction factors, it would be impossible to accurately compare horsepower numbers from one test facility to another. In theory, correction factors produce numbers that reflect an engine running at sea level, but not all are created equal. There are many SAE correction factors, known in the industry as J codes. "The current is J1349, which corrects to 29.23 inHg at 77 degrees F and 0 percent humidity," explains Bettes. "However, in the automotive aftermarket, it's very common to correct to 29.92 inHg at 60 degrees F and 0 percent humidity. The difference between the two in terms of horsepower calculations is about 4 percent." Furthermore, to gather pertinent atmospheric conditions, a dyno facility's weather station should be located in the test cell itself. While it shouldn't interfere with an engine's airflow, an ideal scenario would have the weather station hanging down from the ceiling, positioned near the carburetor to most precisely measure the air the engine is ingesting. Acceleration Rate Dynos regulate how quickly a motor is allowed to accelerate, and that rate affects power output. There is no set standard, but accelerating a motor at 300 rpm per second is common in the industry. "If you gather data at 300 rpm per second in one test and 600 rpm per second in another test, then the numbers from each aren't comparable," explains Bettes. "Slower acceleration rates typically yield higher horsepower figures than faster acceleration rates. Drag racers usually test using faster acceleration rates than the NASCAR guys." Load Can dynos sufficiently load a motor to simulate the weight of a 3,000-4,000 pound car? You bet. Skeptics think that because dynos don't load a motor as much as under real-world use, engine builders can get away with running more aggressive timing and fuel curves, therefore boosting horsepower figures to unrealistic levels. Not true. "In most cases, a dyno can put more load on a motor than it would normally see in a car," says Roberts. "In a car, load decreases as speed increases due to inertia, but that isn't the case on a dyno." Bettes concurs, pointing out that dynos can load a motor at far lower rpm than a car. "You can load a motor at WOT at 3,000 rpm on a dyno, but a motor would never see those conditions at the track or on the street, since the tires would spin or the torque converter would stall at a higher rpm. Also, a dyno operates at a 1:1 ratio, so unlike a car, it's always in High gear." Ventilation Exhaust fumes displace oxygen, so even minute traces of the exhaust that makes its way back into the carburetor dramatically reduces power output and test consistency. According to Bettes, if a shop is located next to a freeway, exhaust fumes from cars during rush-hour traffic will adversely affect dyno readings. In addition to providing fresh air for the motor to breathe, proper ventilation helps shed radiant heat. "To accomplish both objectives, the average test cell needs to flow 20,000-25,000 cfm of air," Bettes explains. "To put that in perspective, people only breathe 3 cfm. A ventilation system doesn't have to be elaborate, but having the right size fan and a good cell design is critical to ensure consistent test results." But wouldn't going overboard have a supercharging effect on the motor? "It's possible, but not likely, since the weather station's barometer would compensate for it in the correction factor anyway. Even if you could manage to supercharge a cell, it would only equal a few inches of water. Considering 13.6 inches of water is equivalent to 1 inch of mercury, that's not much pressure at all." No two test-cell designs are identical, and multiple arrangements can be used to achieve good ventilation. The fan should draw fresh air from outside the test cell, but some dyno rooms have separate air ducting to feed the carb. Likewise, some cells route exhaust fumes outside of the room while others dump the exhaust right into it. The latter is fine as long as there is sufficient airflow. Ultimately, properly ventilating a test cell isn't a one-size-fits-all affair. Accuracy Factors such as load control, test-cell design, and operator technique all influence the accuracy of a dyno. Fortunately, these variables are relatively easy to control, which yields extremely repeatable results from test to test. Since most contemporary dynos are automated, the potential for operator error is substantially reduced and smooth load application isn't difficult to achieve. "Tests should be repeatable within much less than 1 percent, and within 0.5 percent with a good test cell," explains Bettes. "At NASCAR shops, they're looking for 1hp gains out of 850hp motors, and 1 850 = a lot less than 1 percent. Pro Stock shops are often within 1 hp from pull to pull." Oil & Water Temperature To minimize variations between pulls, dynos must closely regulate an engine's oil and water temperature. Typically, this is accomplished by tapping into the dyno's main water supply tank. Water from the tank is routed to a cooling tower in the test cell, which supplies water to the motor. The cooling tower has its own thermostat and, in some instances, its own heat exchanger. To circulate the water, DTS recommends a 10hp centrifugal pump capable of flowing 80 gph at 80-90 psi. Oil temperature can be regulated by simply allowing sufficient warm-up and cool-down time between pulls. Dyno manufacturers can also add a water-cooled heat exchanger to help regulate oil temps. "Generally, the sweet spot for oil temperature is 190-220 degrees F, and it should be held within 2-5 degrees from pull to pull to maintain consistency," Bettes explains. "Running a motor outside that sweet spot can affect power in either direction by 3 percent, and that's a scary number." Operator Error These days, the technique of the dyno operator has very little influence on test results. That's because the vast majority of dynos are automated. "Even if someone has never seen a dyno before, I can teach them how to run one in 10 mintues," says Bettes. "On an automated system, as the operator adds throttle, the computer automatically adds load to the motor. All the operator has to do is set the rpm range of the test and smoothly apply the throttle. The fans can be set up to turn on and off automatically as well." Conversely, manual dynos are more difficult to use, since the operator must control throttle with one hand and manually add load with the other hand. Although an operator can impact test results far more with a manual system than an automated system, they're rare these days. Warm-Up & Cool-Down Although different engines have different needs, all dyno tests should allow for sufficient warm-up time before each pull and cool-down time between pulls. To ensure consistency between tests, fluid temperatures must be stabilized. "Opinions vary greatly, but for a street/strip motor, the oil temperature should be at least 190 degrees before going WOT, and coolant temperatures should be held between 160 and 165 degrees+ F," Bettes explains. "Target fluid temperatures with race motors are all over the map because the temperatures a motor will see on the track is what should be duplicated on the dyno." Power & Fuel Supply Different manufacturers implement different setups, but a dyno's electrical equipment usually draws power from the building, while the motor's ignition system and starter run off a battery positioned in the dyno cradle. When it comes to fuel supply, every cell is different, but a dyno's fuel system closely resembles that of a car. Typically, a fuel cell is mounted remotely outside the dyno room with feed and return lines running to the motor. "We can supply a fuel system, but most facilities choose to put it together themselves to suit their own needs," says Roberts. "They can vary quite a bit from shop to shop, but should be designed to duplicate how it will be run in the car as closely as possible. If a dyno flows more fuel than the car that motor will go in, the motor will make more power on the dyno than on the street." Ultimate Tuning Tool Inevitably, some people will use dynos strictly as bench-racing tools. For serious racers, however, dynos are the ultimate tuning tool. "Let's say you have a sprint-car engine that comes off of the corners at 6,500 rpm," says Roberts. "Using the dyno, you can then narrow in on the rpm range to maximize torque from 6,500 to 7,000." In other words, by replicating track conditions without actually going to the track, racers can make much better use of what little track time they have. "In NASCAR and F1, teams live and die by engine development on the dyno," Bettes opines. "Since track time is so precious, they don't have time to mess around with tuning a motor at the track. They have to be ready to race out of the box." CHP
    83 replies | 961 view(s)
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